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  • ImSpartacus - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Holy shit.

    Didn't see this coming.
  • PeterCollier - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    And this is why MNVOs are the way to go.

    I've been on Cricket for the last 6 months. Cricket is an AT&T MNVO. I've paid exactly 0 dollars in phone bills for the last 6 months.

    The only money I spent was 50 dollars on phones after rebates (which I actually received). 50 dollars bought me 2 Moto Gs (LTE edition) and 3 HTC Desire 510s.

    Plan includes unlimited call and text and 2.5 GB of data each month with no overage fees, just reduced speeds.

    Cricket (AT&T) coverage is pretty good. I got to test it firsthand for about 3 weeks recently because I had to stay in a rural area. Inside buildings in this rural area, I had maybe EDGE speeds. A friend had a Verizon iPhone, and it got pretty strong and consistent 3G coverage even inside the buildings. Another person with T-Mo was SOL in this area. Sprint - I know one person with a Sprint dumbphone that could at least make calls in the area - but I wasn't sure about data coverage since they had a dumbphone and didn't really use the internet. Basically, the deal was if I stepped outside the buildings, I could expect 4G or even LTE coverage and acceptable speeds.

    Of course, all good things come to an end, so I will be paying $100 a month (tax included) starting this month for my 5 phones on Cricket. My sign-up credits finally ran out. he other good thing about Cricket is that the price includes tax, regulatory fees, etc. So my bill is not $100 + tax + regulatory fees - it's just a flat $100/month.

    I remember with T-Mo. with only 3 phones and 1 GB of 4G (not LTE) data per month my bill was easily in excess of $140 a month. I also had to pay for my phones on T-Mo.
  • imaheadcase - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I don't like that deal, reduced speeds. I think most would prefer just a flat extra per gig going over the cap. I would go over 2.5Gb each month easily.
  • PeterCollier - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I agree that the 8mbps cap might be limiting for some but Google tells me that the average LTE speed on AT&T is between 6 to 8 mbps.

    Also the way that the pricing structure works is that the cost of a 2.5gb plan for one phone is 40 bucks, an additional phone is 30, a third phone is 20, a fourth phone is 10, and a fifth phone is 0. I chose a free after rebate phone as the fifth phone. I only have four people in my household so I just use the fifth phone's SIM card whenever I run out of data on my primary phone. A simple SIM card swap effectively gives me 5gb of data a month for no additional charge.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Clever use, tho swishing SIMs can be a hassle if you use a case etc.
  • hrrmph - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Most good phones are available in dual-SIM models...

    ... except in North America.
  • Murloc - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link

    not most, and not flagships.
  • DanNeely - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Doesn't the sim card swap give your phone a different # which'd cause it not to recieve any sms or voice calls sent to your normal one?
  • Midwayman - Thursday, August 13, 2015 - link

    This is what something like google voice is for. They ring your GV and it'll ring all the numbers you have. Totally transparent to the outside user.
  • Sushisamurai - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    ... You're kidding right? I do about 25 GBs per month on my phone on T-mobile, $80 flat rate, and I don't notice reduced speeds.
  • RussianSensation - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Just curious how you are using 25 GBs of data a month on your phone? Are you a student or working outdoors? My work has wi-fi, home has wi-fi, car has navigation system. Are you streaming high definition movies/music at work or something?
  • khanikun - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link

    I've hit 1TB on my phone before. I had my home computer tethered to it and had no dsl/cable/fios/etc. The phone was my internet source.
  • khanikun - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link

    I still have T-Mobile's old plan, when unlimited was unlimited. Not this high speed, low speed crap. $50 a month for unlimited everything. Grandfathered in baby
  • Morawka - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Cricket is tmobile dude
  • Morawka - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    nevermind I was thinking virgin.. however I bet your throttle is much lower than 8 Mbps.. most throttles are in the kbps range.
  • Chaser - Tuesday, August 11, 2015 - link

    MNVO's can save money but you get what you pay for. MNVOs purchase excess, projected unused, voice and data services from the primaries. Go into an AT&T store and they will explain to you how they are different. MNVO users are second teir customers. In other words if there are 50 people on their AT&T phones accessing the same tower and a Cricket person tries to make a call guess who goes first? Guess who doesn't get service if that tower's capacity is fuill from regular AT&T customers. Also roaming with MNVOs? Good luck. So sure. If you live in a metro area and stay put there then it can be a viable alternative if you are OK with playing second fiddle to the subscribers. But the idea it's the "smarter" choice? You get what you pay for.
  • hansmuff - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Well ain't that something. Still staying with TMO.
  • EnzoFX - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link


    We should all thank TMO for this.
  • Mr Perfect - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Wow, what's next? Retailers including tax in advertised prices?

    So do these data buckets roll over, or is it strictly use it or loose it? Also, dos this mean that phones will now be unlocked from day one? Will VZW still be standing between Google and users when it comes to rolling out Android updates, seeing as they don't have a claim to the device anymore?
  • StargateNH - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    HAHA, no way they would allow roll-over. I wish, but I am positive there is no way.
  • crimson117 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Why not? AT&T (their biggest competitor) does...
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    And they do it in such an asinine way that it's worthless... Data that rolls over on AT&T expires after one month, and your monthly allotment is always used before the rollover, so you get to use the rollover maybe once or twice a year at best (if you're going over/under every other month you have a pretty weird usage pattern).
  • Morawka - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    i make sure i use my att rollover by hooking it up to my pc via mobile hotspot, and download large files, or do large scale photo backups.. i peg the upload to the max for all my rollover bandwidth.. i'm sure att hates me for using up all their upstream bandwidth, but I'm glad i could stick it to them :)
  • Vepsa - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Verizon not standing between device manufactures & users for updates? Yeah right, that will never happen. They need to get their crapware in place (on Android devices that is).
  • webdoctors - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    This is big bad news for Samsung and Apple. Once consumers have to pay full price for their devices they'll gravitate to reasonably prices phones like the Moto G, Zenfone 2, etc. under $199.

    To Joe sixpack its not easy to show why one black rectangle is $600 and another is $200 when they run the same apps at the same screens and speeds.

    Does anyone have stats on how sales differ in Europe vs. N.America where folks have been paying non subsidized prices for years? Guess if Apple dominates in Europe than this will be a non-issue.
  • ingwe - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Very interesting point. I suspect you are correct, but I am curious how things will actually work.
  • Morawka - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    apple and device makers will start subsidizing them lol. by getting kickback from the carrier
  • ImSpartacus - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Honestly, I'm struggling to see an appreciable difference between these new "budget" phones and halo phones.

    Occasionally you see something like the s6 active that has a large battery and a waterproof chassis, but it feels like it's all the same.
  • Flunk - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Those top-end phones are woefully overpriced. Without the benefits of contracts hiding the price I can't see many of them selling. Why spend $700 on a Galaxy S7 when a Moto G/Zenphone2 is $200. I really can't see any reason to price any phone over $400, you can get phones that compete with the maxi-priced phones in the $400 range now anyway.

    Anyone else notice that their data prices are still horrible? Take away the contract and pocket the savings? Shameful.
  • dark4181 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    I foresee a price drop coming with the high end devices. Heck, even a $130 price drop (what Apple charges for the cellular radio) and a reduction in memory upgrade pricing would be a big equalizer. I suppose it will depend on whether sales numbers drop when folks realize how much a high end phone REALLY costs.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    They won't realize it, they haven't done so on AT&T what makes you think VZW following suit changes anything? They're pretty good at selling people on the idea of paying X amount a month for a phone...
  • khanikun - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link

    Yes, phones are way overpriced. I mean, when you look at a similar spec tablet, it's like 1/2 the price. All that extra money for what? A cellphone antenna?
  • SunLord - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    One has a stupid small battery combined with a draining high resolution 1440p screen and a qualcomm 810 and the other doesn't?

    I'm waiting for a new Nexus 5 personally but only if it's priced the same as the last Nexus 5 and doesn't trade battery or pointless gimmicky super thinness .
  • ScorpionRaY - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    In China there is no subsidy but Apple and Samsung still dominates.
  • DanNeely - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    The most recent quarter reported had the top two sales slots in China held by local companies.
  • name99 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Apple dominates the profitable segment in China, like elsewhere, and that's all they care about.
    Samsung is the one for whom the local companies are a problem, especially since there's no obvious advantage to buying Samsung over Xiaomi.
  • dsumanik - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    pfff... blatant viral marketing account, or OP's secondary account...lame attempt to manipulate stock/prove invalid point much?

    Lemme guess you have ccounts with name98, name97...
  • steven75 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Given that AT&T already did this switch long ago we already know what happens: The carrier still offers a way to buy the latest devices for about $200 up front, then you pay a per month installment. The mix of high end devices was completely unaffected because it appears to the repeat, average customer that nothing much has changed!

    Where customers get royally screwed is buying the cheaper phones like the Moto G using this same installment plan. They just see "Moto G: $150, Galaxy S5: $200." They don't notice that the MSRP is wildly different and the carrier pockets the difference.
  • kaidenshi - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    "They just see "Moto G: $150, Galaxy S5: $200." They don't notice that the MSRP is wildly different and the carrier pockets the difference."

    Are you sure about that? Everywhere I've seen the Moto G for $150, it's buying the phone outright with no payment plan. I've also seen it for $0 up front which means it's either tied to a contract or a payment plan. But you can go on Amazon and buy it unlocked for $150 all day long.
  • OCedHrt - Tuesday, August 11, 2015 - link

    Yeah I think he got it backwards. The cheap phone buyers finally don't get screwed by having the to continuously pay subsidies. This is all thanks to T-Mobile forcing the change.
  • Morawka - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    AT&T still does subsidies.. they never stopped. The only thing that changed with AT&T is you cant get a subsidized phone through a 3rd party (apple store, Wal-Mart, Best Buy). to get a subsidized phone you have to go to the AT&T Store.
  • cmdrdredd - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Not when it's as simple as a $25 addition to the bill. You don't have to walk into AT&T or T-Mobile and drop $850 for a top of the line device. You can get whatever you want with no money down if you qualify credit wise or you put a small down payment and pay per month for the device. Verizon will have to offer that or nobody is going to want to sign up.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    This model ends up being just as bad as the straight subsidy model IMO, but it's entirely the clueless customer's problem... At least the few that bother doing any research and basic budgeting have a couple more options now, they're the few and not the many tho.
  • cmdrdredd - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    It's actually better because you are buying the device outright with the payment plan. The subsidy actually costs you more, this doesn't.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    You also bought phones outright with contract plans, it was yours to do with as you please after the contract... Old contract plans had a hidden subsidy, that's what I was alluding to and comparing, not those new fangled phone lease options... That is indeed the biggest rip off of them all.
  • minijedimaster - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Yeah, except when the contract ended on the old plan your bill never dropped. On these new plans where you are paying the phone off with monthly payments, those monthly payments go away when its paid off and your bill drops to the regular monthly price.
  • Impulses - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link

    I'm not arguing the old model was better, just that this isn't a massive improvement. It's definitely better for people that do their research, more options is always better, most people end up paying exactly the same darn thing over two years tho... And they'll likely keep upgrading about as often, if not because they want to because they have to (clumsiness, theft, etc).
  • michael2k - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    iPhone does okay in Europe:
    http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/global/News/Apple-...

    I don't think Verizon, being about a third the US subscriber base, is going to rock the boat too much given that AT&T, Sprint, and TMo have offered subsidy free phones for a while now:
    https://www.strategyanalytics.com/strategy-analyti...
  • Vatharian - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Wrong. In Europe we also have HEAVILY subsidized phones, and buying them at $1 is extremely common. Issue is, for $80 in EU we have basically unlimited data. I personally pay $37/mo for two activations, one 100GB with no overage (slowdown 2 mbps after), and second with 12 GB/mo, without overages too (slowdown to 128 kbps), and unlimited calling in EU. And that includes subsidized HTC M8. If someone offered me $80 for 12GB I would simply laugh at his face and gtfo.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    That's just AT&T and Verizon's pricing. Sprint and Tmo both still offer unlimited data for similar prices and while their network coverage doesn't match the big two, they still cover half a continent which no carrier in the EU is doing.

    If a national US carrier told me I'd have to worry about roaming and long distance charges anywhere between NY and LA (or even Hawaii and Puerto Rico) I'd laugh at his face and gtfo.

    Grass is always greener and all that... Outside of software bloat, I don't think US carriers are really faring any worse than most other locations anymore, their and their networks are certainly bigger than any other location's.
  • Mondozai - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Imp, most people dont need roaming except on vacation and its far less than it used to be, eliminated in 18 months, also.

    Sorry but US carriers are atrocious. I can get 100 GB data plans for 50 dollars, unlimited calls etc as well(Sweden). 80 dollars for 12 GB is utterly pathetic and a ripoff.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I don't know, I travel to the USA couple times a year and that's flying out from the Caribbean. I imagine people within the continental US simply drive across state lines pretty often in certain areas...

    If US carriers were segmented by region like Euro ones you'd have to deal with roaming across every couple states, which would be particularly disastrous in the east coast. My sister takes the train out of Washington DC to Boston/NY/etc like every other weekend for one...

    Discounting network coverage across half a continent (and additional territories) as a minor convenience seems a little oblivious to me.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I'm not denying that $80 for 12GB is over priced btw, but like I said in the post you replied to, that's just two of the four major carriers. I pay $64 on Sprint for unlimited data/talk and I can still travel within my region far farther than... ;)

    Shoot, that's an old contract plan to boot (tho I'm outside contract and using a N5 bought from Google) so every couple years I can pay $0-200 for a $600+ phone. There's slightly cheaper contract-less plans too.
  • name99 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    You are utterly deluded. I say this based on the success of Apple in markets where phones are not paid for through a long-term contract. (I don't use the term subsidized because this "subsidy" hae not been present for a while now. It doesn't exist on some carriers and on ATT --- my carrier, so I know the details --- it doesn't exist for the Next plans, and is only worth about $60 for the non-Next plans. What you call "subsidy" is basically just the telco handling the details of a hire purchase agreement.

    If you think the sticker price of an iPhone is a deal breaker (personally I think you are wrong), then Apple will obviously create their own version of a "contract" based on you paying the phone off to them directly, over 24 months, charged either to your Visa card or your phone bill, whichever you prefer.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Joe six pack will just pay his $20-30 a month for whatever phone he wants, people are so incapable of basic math and budgeting that they'll often even pay more for a phone in terms... They might go longer between upgrades, maybe, but that was happening anyway.
  • Thrilled to be the Ex - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    My math challenge ex-wife marched in the day the iPhone 6s was available, and although both her and my two kid's iPhone 5s were in good shape, she signed up for a $250 a month phone plan - knowing full well that her overly generous child support was going to run out in less than a year!

    Now she's bawling to me that I need to pay the $57 per kid because they had to buy the newest and greatest because all their friends had it. This is a SCHOOL TEACHER, who ought to be able to do basic math. Plus she signed my youngest up for Verizon's "insurance" at $11 a month plus a $120 copay for repairs/replacements instead of Apple Care+, which costs $99 up front, but averages out to about $4 a month and they'll fix or replace your phone FOUR times during the 2 year contract. My kid broke her screen and it turned out to be cheaper to pay for it entirely herself! (Needless to say, Verizon's "insurance" is now history.) She paid $110 in premiums for NO benefits!

    That's a pretty sad comment on who is teaching our children these days, but she's always outspent drunken sailors, which is a major reason she's my Ex. She somehow talked Verizon into dropping her bill to $150 a month, but I think it's time that both of my college kids learn that phones aren't free, or a right, or that dad will pick up the bill for their mother's stupidity. One thing's for sure, they'll be switching to a tracfone of some sort when their contract runs out, and I don't particularly feel like paying $1600 to bail them out.
  • vortmax2 - Monday, August 10, 2015 - link

    Not trying to be a jerk, and I certainly don't know the full context of your divorce....with that said in response to the following:

    "but I think it's time that both of my college kids learn that phones aren't free, or a right, or that dad will pick up the bill for their mother's stupidity."

    If you had any influence in your kids' lives up to this point, you should bear some of the responsibility for your kids' irresponsibility in the phone/money arena. Just sayin'.
  • TheGeneral44 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    In the UK, at least, we actually do get subsidised phones but it's a bit different: You choose a monthly plan (2 year contract) with a combination of minutes/texts (usually unlimited nowadays) and data. You can then choose between paying more upfront and having a cheaper contract or paying a higher monthly rate but very little upfront. So if you look here (https://www.o2.co.uk/shop/tariff/apple/iphone-6/?p... you can see that I could get a 64GB iPhone 6 with 5GB data for £9.99 upfront and then £54.00/month. I could also choose the same deal but pay £729.99 upfront and then only have a monthly bill of £24.

    On the other end of the scale, I could get something like a HTC Desire 510 with 3GB data and pay nothing upfront with a monthly bill of £26.00 (https://www.o2.co.uk/shop/tariff/htc/desire-510/?p...

    We also don't have punitive overage charges - if you go over your data limit then your data is either stopped or throttled (depending on the operator) and you can choose to pay more to get it back or just wait till next month.

    You can also buy the phone on "pay & go"/"pay-as-you-go", where you get the phone at a slight discount without a contract but it's locked to the mobile operator that sold it to you.

    Over here we never did the whole "Pay $199.99 upfront, $45 activation fee, sign a service plan for $100/month and then pay $40/month to add the phone to the plan" thing because it just seems like a major league rip-off. We also don't really do mail-in rebates and the like because it again feels like we're being ripped off.

    Everyone here recognises that we're paying for the cost of the phone in the plan (and the mobile operators don't pretend otherwise) but we're happy with that because it means we don't have to lay down £500 upfront for the phone. To us, it just seems like N. American carriers charge too much for their phones!
  • rtho782 - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    In the UK, ours is a subsidised model. Buy a phone for nothing upfront, pay £40 a month for 4gb or so and unlimited mins and texts for 2 years. There are sim only deals for people that already have the phones and some mvnos that focus on this (giffgaff for example) but the big 4 operators all do most of their business with subsidies.
  • RussianSensation - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    That would be a good development if it actually happened so phone prices could come down to earth. The iPod costs $199 but the iPhone 6 is $650? A full blown 13.3" laptop with USB 3.0, 256GB SSD, W10, HDMI, dual-band 802.11 AC, 8GB of RAM, trackpad, made entirely of aluminum costs $850 but the iPhone 6 Plus is $750 and surely Note 5 will be $700+? What a joke.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00X4099OG/ref=wl_it_dp_o...
  • masouth - Tuesday, August 11, 2015 - link

    I don't think it will be all doom and gloom for the phone makers. The industry has already been moving towards a payment plan system instead of a subsidized system. I know people who have already let the phone company set that hook in their mouth. As an artificial example:

    "$25 a month for 3 years to get a new iphone? Sign me up!"

    Meanwhile 18 months later they have already paid in $450, they now want the new iPhone, and they are still another 18 months/$450 dollars in the hole.

    That + a monthly bill are a much better business model than a service contract. They have to pay on that phone even without the service. So many short sighted people just look at that $25 a month and completely ignore the term, the resulting total amount they will pay, and if they are actually going to want this phone for the next 3 years. It's just money in the bank for the companies.
  • Murloc - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link

    most iphones I talked about with people were sold subsidized with a contract.

    Iphones have a noticeably smaller marketshare in Europe than they do in the US regardless, although it depends on the country.

    In my country and in neighbouring ones there are traditional monthly subscriptions for data (if you don't use data then prepaid is more usual) so most people also get a subsidized phones when they renew them every 2 years.
  • Murloc - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link

    I think you're right, when you have to dish out 600$ cash for a phone (that many people break or lose) it stings more than if it's 200$ and the rest is paid through monthly contract fees (that's why lending and leasing are popular among people who can't afford stuff.....), and no lower fees are available if you don't use the subsidy for a new phone at all.

    If there are no subsidies anymore 200$ phones will be more successful. Luckily for Microsoft that's where they are strong.
  • izdlang - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    What I really want to know is.. what does this mean to me and my unlimited data? Does this mean that I can no longer renew my contracts and get cheap devices using the old switcheroo?
  • jeffkibuule - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Yep, if you want a new device, you'll be paying full price for it one way or another. Period.
  • whiteiphoneproblems - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    FOR comparison: TMO gives you 3GB *per line* (not "shared bucket") for *$10* -- with no "device access fee," other than the $5/line for each line after the first. That's on base Unlimited Talk/Text plan for $60. (I know TMO's coverage ain't great in some places, and people who pay for VZW do so for a reason -- but there's the price comparison all the same.)
  • whiteiphoneproblems - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    (Actually, $5/line for each add'l line after the second -- the first two lines are included.)
  • DanNeely - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Currently I'm on a VZW contract that gives one smartphone and 2GB of data for $60 +tax; that came with ~$300-400 in device subsidy. For hand waving purposes, call it $360 or $15/month. Under the new plan, for $50/mo I'd only get 1GB of data and the loss of the device subsidy means I'd either pay several hundred more up front or $15/mo amortized over 2 years; meaning instead of $60/mo for 2 GB, I'd be paying $65/mo and only getting one.

    VZW math at its finest.

    Unfortunately in the relatively rural area where I live VZW Network >> Everyone Else's Network is also valid math; so I can't really switch without a big loss of quality of service.
  • piiman - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    "VZW math at its finest."

    Of course! You don't think they changed it for your/our good did you?
    Heck the data is 3x that it used to be (3 g for 29.99 now 1 g for 29.99 WTF?!) Sooo long Verizon.
    This also explains why they keep calling me trying to get me to change plans.
  • Shadowmaster625 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    That is going to stick a fork into apple and samsung both. Say goodbye to outrageously priced $800 ripoffs. An LG G2 is currently selling for $120.
  • A5 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    No it isn't. They just sell the phone as $200 down, then $25/mo.

    Your bill "magically" ends up being the same as was before, but at least now you save money if you keep it longer.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Pretty much, they've kept pricing constant for half a decade thru all sorts of similar switcheroos... Unless you're on Sprint/Tmo, or on a family plan, or you're buying your own devices and shopping sound, you're probably paying close to the same per month to AT&T/VZW as you were five years ago.
  • cmdrdredd - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    T-Mobile lets me get whatever I want for no money down and I pay $25 per month or so. After I pay half the device cost off I can trade up for something new if I want.
  • cmdrdredd - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    They really need an edit button lol.

    Nobody I know pays outright for their device. Everyone on any major carrier I can think of either got a subsidy or pays installments.
  • RT81 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Yep. I don't see this making much of a difference for the flagship phones. You're going to be paying roughly $200 plus tax for the full cost of the phone and then financing the phone through a monthly fee.

    It's honestly not much different than a contract, really. T-Mobile has rules in their agreement that won't allow you to sell your phone immediately. But you do have the added benefit of being able to payoff the full amount of the phone at any time and lower your bill.
  • cmdrdredd - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Yep and what's good is when you pay off the device, the $25 a month is dropped off the bill. The way a subsidy worked was the extra charge was always on the bill and you could not get it removed.
  • kaidenshi - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    So...still the most expensive carrier. I guess it's nice to see the angry red giant join the ranks of most other carriers though.

    Still, I think I'll be sticking with Ting, who has been doing the bucket thing for a long time and costs less than half of Verizon's insane prices. On Ting it's $6 per device, and the lowest buckets start at $3 each.
  • mortimerr - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Does anyone know enough about this to know if phones through Verizon will still come with a ton of useless bloatware?
  • Ian Cutress - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Wow. I pay £16/mo for unlimited 3G data/minutes/texts on EE.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    How far can you travel before you're facing long distance and roaming charges? What kinda 3G speeds do you see in congested areas?
  • TheGeneral44 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    You get that across the whole of the UK. Once you're overseas you have to pay roaming charges but they're not too bad anymore (for EE it seems to be £3-£4 in western Europe). It should also be noted that most of us don't hop over to another country the same way you might hop across state lines (There are language barriers + different currency + the English channel making it more difficult) so it's not much of an issue. Plus, even the £42 bill for spending two weeks in France is less that most US customers pay *each month*!

    Speeds vary with location but Ofcom reckons (http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2014/3g-4g-bb-speed... that the average speed in the UK is ~5-6Mbit/s for 3G (what many US carriers labelled as "4G" is just called 3G over here) and ~15Mbit/s for 4G (what US carriers call LTE).
  • jwcalla - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    This seems like it's a lot more expensive except now you don't get a phone out of the deal.
  • praeses - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Since they already have a maintenance fee per device ($20/smartphone, etc) it would be a lot nicer if they could move away from this step/tier thing and just go to a flat fee of $10/GB.
  • DBissett - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    I'm about to the end of my contract so I put pencil to paper about the 3 ways you can get a phone plus 2 years of service and there's practically no difference between buying the phone outright, paying for it monthly, or putting the partial payment down and signing a 2 year contract. The total cost is virtually identical, and being able to upgrade faster, i.e. as soon as the phone is paid off, is not a benefit at all to me. VZ isn't about to sacrifice top line revenue. As a matter of fact, if they sell more phones by enabling customers to buy newer phones faster then their revenue might actually increase.
  • name99 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Exactly.
    This myth about subsidies is the last great hope of those people who simply will not believe that some people like Apple enough to pay the cost of an iPhone --- they insist these customers must have been bribed with subsidies. People claiming these mythical subsidies have apparently never actually done the REAL calculation of the two year cost of the various alternative purchasing schemes...
  • v1001 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Sure if you bought an $800 phone. 90 percent of people out there wouldn't be buying these super expensive phones if it wasn't for the subsidy price. And they wouldn't be buying them every two years. Now you'll have millions and millions of people that will keep their phones for double or triple the amount of time they used to. They will shop for phones more carefully and when they do buy a new phone they will spend very little. In the end as others have said, this is going to make a huge hit in the profits of phone manufacturers and cell providers. I think verizon had no choice cheaper phones that are still good quality have been flooding the market, and they are also losing customers to the competition who already has made it possible to buy cheap phone with no contract.
  • Deelron - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    They won't, they'll happily pay their $27 extra dollars a month for 2 years at 0% interest until the phone is paid off, hell for a large set of consumers they're going to look at the price they pay per month different and say "hey, a new 6/6s/M9/Whatever is only $10 a month more then say, a G4, I'll get the "nicer" one.

    People may very well keep the phone longer, but that sort of money a month isn't going to put off the people already getting high end phones, particularly given what some of these plans cost.
  • v1001 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Nah man people are always looking to cut costs. That's why people constantly leave other services to even save $5 a month. They had no options before and had to be on a high priced plan no matter what, so might as well trade in their phone every two years and basically get a new one. Those days are over now.
  • v1001 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Meant to say basically get a new one for free (or almost free).
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I'm generally very optimistic, but I think you give the average consumer far too much credit. They *say* they wanna save money but at the end of the day they can't be bothered to shop around and compare or do the math, they end up getting suckered by the carrier into monthly installments because it's easy and effortless.

    They might upgrade slightly less often (3-3.5 vs 2), but we were headed that way anyway because phone tech has reached a plateau. You're also under estimating the amount of "forced" upgrades because of theft and carelessness. I've sold three or four smartphones in mint condition and basically never had one stolen...

    Looking at my immediate family and non techie friends it seems they're on an inverse ratio. My sister has killed like three phones in a row, my mother has killed every other one, my best friend's wife has had it stolen 3x at the mall, etc etc.
  • ciparis - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    These types of plans are all you can get at T-Mobile, and they sell iPhones just fine. Turns out people don't mind seeing the monthly cost of the phone separate from the service. The final cost is similar anyway.
  • Deelron - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    If people as a group were truly always looking to cut costs they wouldn't have bought flagships in the first place when they were a $200-$400 down payment compared to free.

    People leave other services because familiarity breeds contempt, it's always got to be better with *blank*, because my current *blank* sucks.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    People in general don't even switch carriers as much as some would like to believe anyway, there's a reason AT&T and VZW retain such a large user base... And it ain't because ALL those people need the superior coverage, it's sheer inertia and laziness.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    True, but at least you have more options. If you choose to keep a phone longer than two years you can now save, or if you want to upgrade more often it's not as painful, or if you wanna go with a lower cost device you do end up saving money. Vast majority will keep buying an iPhone/SGS and paying it off in installments, so yeah...
  • cyrand - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Depends on your plan. For me this going to increase cost by quite a bit if I buy equivalent phone I own now. I currently getting 2GB of data from Verizon for $60 (the 60 all-inclusive data/text/device activation fee etc.).

    There no 2GB option on the new plans and 1GB not enough but 3 GB more then I need. Under 3GB my price goes up to $65(45 data + 20 activation fee). I currently have a note 4 which Verizon list as $300 subsidize or 700 full price). Assuming I keep a phone for 2 years 400/24 = 16.6. 5+16.6 is an extra $21.6 a month or $518 over 2 years compare to my current plan.

    Am fine waiting 2 years between phone so for my situation I see nothing positive about the new plans.
  • dark4181 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Okay, but how much for text/voice? Still a separate charge? Inclusive in the data bucket?
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Voice has been inclusive and unlimited in the vast majority of US plans for years, they just don't care to nickel and dime for it anymore cause it's not worth their time.
  • takeship - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    I have a theory. This move isn't about exposing the cost of high priced phones, or offering clearer choices to subscribers. In the wake of stagefright, ect, this is about removing legal liability for hacks from Verizon. If my phone is licensed on a contract from Verizon, as is currently the situation with most of their customers, then there is at least a degree of legal obligation from Verizon to ensure that my device is not knowingly insecure. I know no one has ever yet tested this against the carriers in court, but it's probably a slam dunk should a trial lawyer look to make a name for him/herself doing it. If phones are offered on installment plans as part of a secondary contract however, then Verizon has the ability to tell future juries - hey look, we were just collecting a payment for this phone on behalf of Samsung/LG/Sony/HTC etc. It's not OUR phone, we're just the middleman. With something upwards of a billion affected devices out there at present, it's doesn't take a lot of convincing to the board that the future legal costs for delaying or withholding security updates from subscriber phones (who were then hacked and had various terrible, no good things happen to them & identities) will far outweigh the alternative.
  • alaricljs - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    Then YAY and stop forcing the phone manuf's to lock their bootloader. HTC phones - super easy to unlock/root unless it's a VZW phone. It's similar with others, the S4 was simple to unlock if you got in during the first half of the model year, 2nd half it got murky. S5 got harder and S6 might not happen at all.
  • Morawka - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    $15 per GB over is highway robbery. until more people complain to the FCC and FTC about these prices, then i guess it will stay the same.. 1GB cost them fractions of a cent, pretty much free.
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    And I thought AT&T's $10 was high, it's like VZW is physically incapable of charging less than another carrier for *anything*. :p
  • Jakall78 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Yes, these prices seem a bit... overpriced.
    Let`s see, I pay 5,5 USD/month for unlimited data/unlimited text on a 3G network. Not really need 4G just yet, because the speed is good enough.
    If I buy a phone from my carrier, I pay around 25% upfront, and then split the difference in 12 installments. Price for the phone is market price.
    Something is seriously fishy with your prices...
  • freeskier93 - Friday, August 7, 2015 - link

    I was about to say $30 for 1GB of data isn't horrible, but then there's the $20 per phone fee... I think I'll be switching to something like Cricket which is $35 for 2.5GB of data and when you go over they just throttle.
  • siyangqiu - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I can't believe how cheap cricket is. I have 5 people on my plan, so it's 20$ per month per line with the group discount. Verizon charges that just to have your phone connected... It's unreal!
  • coburn_c - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Why the hell do you have to pay a fee based on the device? You're paying for the data, the data overages, and the device. Verizon is a massive scam.
  • we - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link



    I am suprised at the fees / GB in the US (verizon) mentioned in the article compared to fees in Austria. Nobody would pay more than 1€ /GB (or 5€ /GB over limit) in Austria, whether 3G or 4G. Even considering the geographical smallness of Austria, I think we get much better deals.

    5 examples from about 50 variations available from Hutschison Drei Austria:

    Pure data, no contract, no subsidy:

    "Hui SIM unlimitiert": 15€ monthly + 20€ yearly ("service")
    includes: 20 GB data in Austria (≤10Mbit Downl, ≤4Mbit Upl)
    (additional data over limit: 4€ / GB in Austria)

    Pure data, 2 year contract, no subsidy:

    "Hui Flat 150": 45€ monthly + 20€ yearly
    includes: ∞ GB data in Austria (≤150Mbit Downl, ≤50Mbit Upl)

    Pure data, 2 year contract, 500€ subsidy on tablet or laptop:

    "Hui Flat 30 Plus": 40€ monthly + 20€ yearly
    includes: ∞ GB data in Austria (≤30Mbit Downl, ≤5Mbit Upl)
    free Mobile TV Streaming in Austria / 80 Channels.

    Speech + SMS + data, no contract, no subsidy:

    "HalloSIM Premium": 40€ monthly + 20€ yearly
    includes: ∞ speech in Austria
    ∞ SMS
    600 m speech in Europe
    6GB data in Austria (≤150Mbit Downl, ≤50Mbit Upl); 250MB in Europe
    (additional data over limit: 14€ / 10GB in Austria)
    free Mobile TV Streaming in Austria / 6 Channels.

    Speech + SMS + data, 2 year contract, smartphone subsidy:

    Samsung S6 64GB: 129€
    "Hallo Premium": 65€ monthly + 20€ yearly
    includes: ∞ speech in Austria
    ∞ SMS
    600 m speech in Europe
    40GB data in Austria (≤150Mbit Downl, ≤50Mbit Upl); 250MB in Europe
    (additional data over limit: 14€ / 10GB in Austria)
    free Mobile TV Streaming in Austria / 50 Channels
  • DanD85 - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Woah! Those prices for data are robbery! I wonder how the American can put up with this ridiculously high prices! Elsewhere in the world, they don't even have data caps!
  • piiman - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Wow they really up the price on data 1GB for $30 is 3 times what I pay now which is 3 g for 29.99

    F that!
  • mckirkus - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    Maybe this explains Apple's stock price decline. The ability to hide the $800 price in subsidies is dying on the vine.
  • Aikouka - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link

    I don't see how this is that great of a deal. Since I did Verizon's Edge, I get 6GB + 1GB for $60, a smartphone added for $15 and a tablet for $10. If we ignore my bonus 1GB of data, I get the same amount of data for the same price, and I pay less to have my phone on the network ($5 less).

    Also, I think it's ridiculous that you even have to pay $10 a month for a device that can't make calls (e.g. a tablet). I would think that it's slightly less ridiculous if you actually received a larger allotment of data, but I wouldn't expect that to happen.
  • riker46060 - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    Nice money grab Verizon, less service responsibility by the carrier and more cost responsibility to the customer.
  • pika2000 - Sunday, August 9, 2015 - link

    So, still ~$50 a month for a paltry 1GB data, and you have to pay more for the instalment of the phone? I guess it's "good" for those that want Verizon coverage but don't want to be stuck with it for 2 years. But most people would not be switching carriers back n forth, so Verizon is simply taking advantage of those people to now pay for their phones too. Pretty neat trick, marketed as "no contract" as it resonates better to consumers.

    "In many places, the concept of purchasing a device for a heavy subsidy and committing to stay with a given carrier for two or three years is unheard of"
    Not entirely true. Even in countries like Singapore, 2 year contract is common. The difference is that in countries like Singapore and Hong Kong, carrier locking is banned by law from the get go, unlike the US. So despite contracts, there are competition as there are no barriers to switch carriers while using your current phone. That's the real issue, not the contract model. Good thing Verizon is forced to unlock their phones, but the same has to be applied to all the carriers for the market dynamics to work correctly.
  • LoneWolf15 - Tuesday, August 11, 2015 - link

    This benefits few people but Verizon.

    One of the points of eliminating a subsidy is the idea that as a result, your monthly fees go down because you paid for the phone already, so they're not padding the cost into your bill.

    It appears Verizon is making you pay for the phone --and then not changing the monthly cost. It simplifies their paperwork, and they get to have their cake and eat it too. You're paying as much for service as before, but now you pay full price for the phone. Further, while you're not on contract, not every Verizon phone is an easy switch to another carrier, so choose carefully.
  • upsidedownfunnel - Tuesday, August 11, 2015 - link

    What people don't realize is that if they continue using phones at a 2 year cycle or so, they're not really saving any money. If you'll notice, Verizon just rearranged pricing so the difference in your monthly bill is very small. In fact, some people will end up paying slightly more and some might pay slightly less. The 2 year subsidy was actually the cheaper way to buy phones for people who consume less than 6GB of data. Going with Verizon's Everything plan was a little cheaper for people who consume more data. Now with this change, it all kind of evens out and everyone still ends up paying about the same. The unwillingness of people to do any math is what the carriers are counting on when they offer up these seemingly "better" plans.
  • Murloc - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link

    interesting.

    Here in continental Europe they're all sticking with contracts and subsidized devices when it comes to flagship phones for now.
    You can also get prepaid ofc.

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